1. PowerObject !
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 05:17 AM UTC

Just sharing a few concerns about the bleak future of PowerBuilder here and what could be done about it...

We all know PowerBuilder apps work like a rock - surviving major O/S upgrades (even without any PB upgrades) - and can last 20 years, 50 years, 75 years, 100 years... as it is now future-proof with things like PowerServer.

So, what's the issue? The issue is - no one learnt PowerBuilder - newly - in the last over 20+ years and no new projects were started in PB for over 20+ years (only maintaining existing PB apps). Whoever is out there are all dinosaur developers like us still clinging on to PB because PB knowledge lasts a lifetime - it is learn-once and keep-forever native desktop technology with everything out of the box, unlike web technologies that need constant learning of newer languages, libraries, frameworks, platforms evolving frequently (web is a lifetime of learning of mashup technologies). Which is why, every PB developer has a minimum of 25 years of experience in PB. I chuckle when recruiters call me cluelessly looking for a junior PB developer with just 5 years experience (because they want to pay less) and I tell them they won’t find any. PB developer community is different.

People have been saying for 25 years PB is going to die and it has survived because of this tiny leftover group doing just maintenance projects. This tiny group of passionate PB developers are going to retire in a few years from now - for sure. Maybe companies will find replacements with difficulty and paying even more (due to shortage of skilled PB developers) but those new hires will be more or less in the same age group who are about to retire in a couple of years too. It is like prolonging a patient's life with medications with no permanent cure but only imminent death with painful side-effects. Sure, PowerBuilder apps can last 100+ years but who is going to be there around to support PB apps - even a few years from now (leave alone 100+ years)? On the other hand, futuristic languages that were born to live in the cloud such as Java, C# will be around for much longer than 100 years with a vibrant and ACTIVE developer community still around to support them. PB may not have died in 25 years but just one generation change of PB developers and PB's death is imminent. There will be a dire attrition of PB developers soon - it is just a matter of time. Appeon's profits will prolly go down resulting in increase in license subscription fees. I don't know of any other technology that has this weird/bizarre situation.

Companies who realize this imminent danger early on would move away from PowerBuilder - or - Appeon could bring more awareness in the industry about PB's cost-effective and rapid-app-development features - for the sake of its future. Things are not going to happen or change magically if we don’t do nothing!

1) Offer a free Community version of PowerBuilder (it's a shame there is still none so far for all its powerful, rapid development and cost-effective features). Virtually, every other technology has free community editions of their software except PB. What will Appeon lose by offering a limited free version of PB? A free version will only gain more traction and add more to their bottom-line. Who is going to "buy" PB spending $$ these gloomy days of PB - and also learn it these days? Why would anyone do it?? There are less than 10 PowerBuilder jobs in the whole of USA and this has been same the pathetic situation for years now! The addition of killer features like PowerClient, PowerServer, SnapDevelop, PowerScript Migrator, integration with C# and .NET, Themes, Ribbon Bar, etc. have not changed its situation in the job market at all - not one bit - which is proof enough that employers are not interested in PB anymore (and obviously nobody is interested in learning PB newly). Companies and developers who left PB for good decades ago ain't coming back! We cannot ride on a boat that relies only on jobs "maintaining" existing legacy apps.

2) Bring back the Certifications. Every other technology has certifications except PB. There used to be Certified PowerBuilder Developer (CPD)'s from Powersoft and Sybase decades ago (when PowerBuilder was RULING the market and heck, there even used to be a pbjobs.com job board too exclusively for PB jobs) but not anymore - they were gone a long time ago! Grab the course materials from Sybase, update and add more to it, collaborate with universities like Western Governors University and others, offer PowerBuilder as a course track in addition to the C# and Java tracks they already have in Software Development degree programs. WGU is a huge online-only university churning out thousands of students every year, unlike traditional offline universities that can only churn out in dozens maybe. We can only imagine the amount of exposure PB can get from such strategic partnerships.

You could also offer PowerBuilder at the Associate Degree level - as its main course topic (software development, commercial computing…).

You could offer separate course tracks as Intro-level with PowerBuilder, PowerClient during year 1 and Advanced-level with PFC, PowerServer, SnapDevelop, PowerScript Migrator, C#, etc. during year 2. There is so much that can be done to safeguard PB's future before it is too late -

https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/bachelors-programs.html

https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/software-development-bachelors-program.html

Appeon should manage the course content while universities like WGU could manage the course offerings, training, fees, marketing, certifications/degrees, credits

Unless PB is offered as a free Community edition and introduced at the University levels exposing students (future developers) to it, there is not much scope for PB's future and no amount of life-support could save it (I had to select "Critical" as the Priority for this topic to emphasize the importance of this matter). Currently, only Java, C#, C++, Python and JavaScript are offered at colleges/universities and these languages are flourishing for a reason! How can Appeon expect a positive outcome by not doing what others are doing?

And this is coming from me who has been doing PowerBuilder - passionately - for as long as I can remember.

Thoughts? Any other concerns or ideas?

Remember to cast your vote...

PowerObject!

Accepted Answer
Chris Pollach @Appeon Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Tuesday, 7 November 2023 10:51 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # Permalink
Hi Roland; When I first started with PB via PowerSoft as an independent consultant, I actually bought the DeskTop Edition from them for $98 USD. :-) Regards ... Chris
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Sivaprakash BKR Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 23 November 2023 05:21 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 1

To Summarize,

1.  Community Edition
2.  Education license [ Free / Paid / Discounted]
3.  Introduce [influence colleges] to add PowerBuilder
4.  Separate site to list PB Job

4th one will induce colleges to add PowerBuilder into their curriculum.  

1.  Community Edition:  Appeon has a different view.  Not sure whether appeon will come out with one.

2.  Educational License:  Appeon should introduce a special price for educational institutions who wants to add PowerBuilder into their curriculum.

3.  Marketing:  Colleges should be influenced to add PB.  One way is start sponsoring college events.  Marketing guys could come out with more.

4.  Separate site to list PB Jobs:  Needless to say, the importance of this.

Let's see what other members think.

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Ian Wells Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Monday, 13 November 2023 20:52 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 2

I'm about to retire and hand over the PB source code to my clients. They are going to struggle to find a PB developer to support them going forward. I thought that I would use the migration tool to convert to .NET and give them that source...

1. Is it possible/viable/a good idea to migrate the PB apps to .NET because then they will have more chance of finding a .NET developer?

2. Would a .NET developer be able to understand the code after it has been migrated, i.e. is it well structured?

 

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but this may be the only path forward for legacy PB applications.

Comment
  1. Armeen Mazda @Appeon
  2. Tuesday, 14 November 2023 19:38 PM UTC
Yes, they can be bought separately.

I mean the .NET DataStore and PowerScript.Bridge NuGet libraries.
  1. Helpful 1
  1. Miguel Leeuwe
  2. Tuesday, 14 November 2023 21:09 PM UTC
Good to know! thanks.
  1. Helpful
  1. David Peace
  2. Friday, 8 December 2023 10:26 AM UTC
Hi,

As one of the Appeon partners we woudl be very happy to discuss taking over the support for your clients and ensure that they are seccure witht heir PB applications.

Contact me if you are interested?www.powersoft-services.co.uk



Regards David
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Panos Platanas Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Saturday, 22 October 2022 10:40 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 3

My main concern with PowerBuilder is the end-90s looks!

It seems funny but young employees that are used to iPhones and web application get REALLY SCARED once they take a look at our PB application forms.

So we are in a position where our app is really good but new users do not want to use it.

I had a hope that the ugly menus and toolbars would have a better, more automatic, less demanding (code changes wise) way to get replaced.

I wish Appeon can do something more drastic so we can revamp our PB apps easier and get them look better.

These might seem shallow but it is the case for us.

Comment
  1. Kevin Ridley
  2. Friday, 10 November 2023 14:35 PM UTC
@Armeen & Miguel - I think Bruce had written a utility like this before.
  1. Helpful
  1. John Fauss
  2. Friday, 10 November 2023 15:50 PM UTC
I believe this is the utility that Bruce has published in CodeXchange:

https://community.appeon.com/index.php/codeexchange/powerbuilder/254-ribbonbar-menu-generator#470
  1. Helpful 1
  1. Armeen Mazda @Appeon
  2. Monday, 13 November 2023 19:34 PM UTC
What we are planning to do goes further than what Bruce did, but yes that utility Bruce did is very useful in the interim.
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Aleš Vojáček Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 20 October 2022 18:38 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 4

Hi all,

I leaved PB almost 10 years ago and 2 years ago I returned, because of maintaining few old apps. In the mean time I was C# developer.

Here are some of my thougs:

1. PB documentation, best practices even samples are almost in same condition as before. That is shame, because after those years there is not where to learn, how to develop modern app in PB. I'm not talking about PB Server, because my interest is modern dektop app with DB behind it. I'm not talking about UI. Our customers are satisfied with "old" look and feel and they do not want UI as M$Office has nor webapp. They have quiet large forms in old PB app and they like it. I'm talking about modern design principles, separation of coserns, .... unit testing, .... Our old app is mess of hard to maintain code and this cannot attract any young dev.

2. I had few problems which I remember I had in past and forgot it. I looked for solution, hours, hours (some troubles was with using datastore instead of datawindows for data manipulation, sometimes helped export/import object and it fixed issue, ....., last problem was with function with more prototypes with differen number of arguments, did not work, export object sort prototypes from few to more parameters, import back and issue solved) Those types of werid behaviors are extremely bad. In C# if something does not work, you can debug, find, repair, .. In PB most problems are magic in the end.

3. PB does good what did good 10years ago, you can rapidly create new database intensive app, that is for sure. But without propper coding in few years it become nightmare and here can help some example app with best practices. Which will make easier to maintain or modernize applications.

 

So I thing that it is possible to make PB more attractive, but it will be a lot of work on doc, tutorials, examples to let people know that in PB you can make app with modern design principles (not only semi templated UI). Learn pepople how to Unit test PB aplications.  Problem is that it is not clear if it success after all. World has changed and rapid UI development is not so sexy as it was 15 years ago. Databases are different, not all are relational databases. 

I'm thinking how developers in Lisp, Cobol, Fortran are. I wish best to PowerBuilder and may be someone clever will find way how to make PB more attractive to young devs. 

For me there is almost only way to find someone who will maintain apps for our customers, port application to C# or something like C# :-( 

A.

 

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Tracy Lamb Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Tuesday, 18 October 2022 17:12 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 5

I've been using PB for almost 30 years... yikes!  Can't believe I'm that old already!  My initial investment was PowerSoft's version 3.  I agree that PB apps are extremely bullet-proof.  I asked my customers years ago if there was another app on their PC's that are as old as my app?  Nope.

When it looked like the writing was on the wall for the death of PB many years ago, I looked into other technologies.  Absolutely nothing compares to the power of the datawindow... nothing.

Corporations are very short-sighted... extremely short-sighted.  PB applications have a longer life span than everything I'm aware of.  Return On Investment (ROI) is tremendous for PB app development.  But they're all attracted to the newest gadgets.  And, they all want young, cheap developers who "know everything"... lol!  I wonder if they ever do an ROI on the failed projects they've funded?  

Appeon has been a blessing to the future of PowerBuilder, and the community support is world-class.  I used PB5 for many years (10+)... didn't upgrade until PB12 (Sybase).  So the new annual license renewal is more expensive for me, but I understand Appeon has to earn a living too, and I'm guessing a lot of us didn't upgrade very often (if it ain't broke, don't fix it).  I do love the fact that even though I do have to renew my subscription every year, I don't have to upgrade my software.  But it's available if I need it.

My customer's recently complained because they had to buy 2 upgrades from me in the last 2 years (many still haven't done either upgrade), and re-install PB runtime.  I just remind them that the last upgrade they had to pay for was almost 10 years ago.  Do these corporations even do ROI analysis anymore?

Maybe the right solution is to educate corporations about the benefits of PowerBuilder.  (Good luck with that, the decision makers are not very tech savvy). A good programmer can learn PowerBuilder pretty quickly.  Especially with a senior PB developer heading up the development team.

Offering PowerBuilder college-level courses is a good idea too.  Then these young programmers can put "PowerBuilder" on their resume.

My 2 cents worth,
~~~Tracy

 

 

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Matt Balent Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Monday, 17 October 2022 14:47 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 6

If you want to make a good (if not great) impression with PB then you have to do things differently; not like in the 1990's or early 2000's.  I have met and worked with way too many PB developers who are doing the same things they did as when they started using the tool.  You might have twenty-five years experience but gained it one year at a time twenty-five times over.

There have been many UI related sessions at conferences but what do you see? The same thing designed by some 25 year old computer science grad back in 1998.  Just 'cause "it ain't broke" doesn't mean it cannot be fixed.  I am near the end of a project which has completely transformed the look of the PB application it's based on and all I basically did was make windows resizable, get rid of the silver/button face colors, eliminate the dated '3d' buttons, and change the fonts.  The users are THRILLED.

Does this mean that eventually the company may move away from PB? I don't know but I am not too worried about that for a long time.  If I were to suggest something to the community / Appeon it would be to improve the online docs for the newer technologies (JSON array parsing is a real pain point in general). 

Just having a educational or express version of the tool (although I am in favor of this) would not solve the issue for young programmers.  There needs to be more and more current content available on line.  I've done this in the past and it's not easy to maintain a stream of quality information.  The current Appeon Q&A board is kinda nice but isn't really geared to finding previous answers or researching solutions.

Comment
  1. PowerObject !
  2. Monday, 17 October 2022 18:18 PM UTC
Hi Matt, Howdy?



I've been dishing out UIs in PowerBuilder with the highest quality possible and thrilling my users beyond their wildest imaginations. People often ask me, "Was this created in PowerBuilder?!".



But building cool UIs in a PB project or two is not going to bring back the companies and developers who left PB for good decades ago or attract any new companies/developers and the number of PB developers and PB jobs is not going to improve but only dwindle further. It's a missed train - the innovations and integrations PB has now could have ideally existed 15-20 years ago (PB was not in the good hands of Appeon until recently).
  1. Helpful 2
  1. Sivaprakash BKR
  2. Wednesday, 19 October 2022 05:31 AM UTC
Powerobject,

May be out of the main point of discussion. Can you put a couple of cool UI's that you created either here or in CodeXchange, so that we could get an idea of how to improve our UI's?

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Miguel Leeuwe Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Saturday, 15 October 2022 13:28 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 7

Hi,

I think the biggest challenges are:

People are not willing to invest time / money in learning powerbuilder after doing a search on available jobs. There's just a few and most of them aren't very interesting.

Companies are not willing to create new applications in Powerbuilder after investigating how many people are skilled in Powerbuilder and available.

just my experience.

regards,

MiguelL

Comment
  1. Armeen Mazda @Appeon
  2. Thursday, 20 October 2022 17:42 PM UTC
Adding to what Mike said, yes just please stay active on Appeon Community and participate in Elevate!
  1. Helpful
  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Friday, 21 October 2022 05:54 AM UTC
What's the date for Elevate in 2022?
  1. Helpful
  1. John Fauss
  2. Friday, 21 October 2022 13:10 PM UTC
I believe it is November 7-8.
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Sivaprakash BKR Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Saturday, 15 October 2022 11:50 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 8

Apart from all the discussion we do, the most important thing would be

TO BREAK THE MYTH THAT POWERBUILDER IS OLD

This would be the most important challenge that Appeon and PB users need to overcome.

Happiness Always
BKR Sivaprakash

 

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Sivaprakash BKR Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Friday, 14 October 2022 06:51 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 9

I would like to share my views on Armeen reply (or official Appeon view)

The talent resource issue is best solved by the existing PB customers hiring new blood and training them in PB by utilizing Appeon-U or our consulting partners or getting staff augmentation from our consulting partners.

PB developers are going to give training in PB by utilizing Appeon-U or with their internal talent or by hiring consulting partners.   This is not the question that the developers put in here.  What they expect should they pay the same license fee for PB that's going to be used for training purpose alone.   Can't Appeon do something on this front?   like introducing a community edition.   

As far as offering a community edition of PB, this isn't going to magically solve the problem.  The only time community edition becomes important is when the motivation is there for many people to proactively invest to learn on their own time. 

Definitely community edition is not going to be used by any developers to develop mission-critical applications.  Still it (or its equivalent) exists in many other products which is having its own place.   To give training by any house, these could very well be used, which Appeon cannot get the data to calculate any statistics.   Definitely it has got its own place.

Since PB has much smaller market share than .NET for example, somebody who is career-focused is not going to be motivated to learn PB on their own (even if PB was free).  So brings me back to the point there needs to be a job offer along with the employer taking initiative to train up to create set of conditions somebody try to learn.  

Employers are taking care of that, no doubt.  Just because it's happening it cannot be termed as ideal.  Won't it be better if such things gets added up.

I should add that according to Google Analytics of registrations for accounts to use PowerBuilder/InfoMaker, 69.19% of users is 44 years or younger and 44.21% of our users is 34 or younger.  So these are hard numbers to back up my anecdote that many customers are able to get new staff and that it is do-able to staff PB projects for the long-term.

Appeon could add up to the above, how many licenses has been sold to new PB houses (projects) since the release of PB 2017.   This might give a better picture and also more confidence to us all.

Happiness Always
BKR Sivaprakash

Comment
  1. Aleš Vojáček
  2. Thursday, 20 October 2022 19:50 PM UTC
Tracy development in C# will be longer, for shure. I lived in both spaces. We have PB app which is in production 22+ years (PB) and C# (same type of app, but newer version) 15 years.

1. Development of PB app with fewer developers (but less funcionality) was from start faster.

2. Development of C# app was longer, but worflows in app and functionality is more complex.

Both apps are desktop apps. PB app has MSSQL DB. C# App can work with MSSQL, Oracle, Postgress. PB app had a lot of funcionality in SQL Procedures and triggers, C# app almost none functionality in SQL.

I remember back then that we thought, that because of PB we can use any of DB solutions available back then. But that was wrong. We tried to port to Oracle and that was dissaster. Even now you cannot easily switch DB for PB app, even ODBC->OLEDB->Native client for MSSQL is not painless.



What is worst for our comparsion is, maintanace of those 2 apps. PB is mess big part of that is because of RAD in PB where you can point and click and write some code there and there and it works, then you can inherit from some window and tweak and voila, you have another window fast. But if someone come few years after RAD in PB and wants to maintain it, that is nightmare. What is even worse is that you cannot find any developers who want this job.

In C# there is plenty sources where you can learn how to write maintanable app, you have nice modern app enviroments, intelisense, code copletion, refaktorings, unit testing, stress testing, a lot of libraries opensourced/paid and a lot of developers from which you can choose.

Because I used PB and .NET C# a lot I can say that quality of code and applications I see differenty C# .NET is way better in almost every aspect.
  1. Helpful 1
  1. Sivaprakash BKR
  2. Friday, 21 October 2022 05:30 AM UTC
Nice to hear from a developer who has both PB and .Net experience.
  1. Helpful
  1. mike S
  2. Wednesday, 22 November 2023 20:57 PM UTC
@Aleš

" use any of DB solutions... But that was wrong."

You can't blame PB for your oracle issues. our PB app runs on mssql, oracle, ASE, sql anywhere for more years than your c# app. It is setup for postgresql but don't have anyone using that (DB2 was supported for a time too). using standard sql for left outer joins made a huge difference rather than the old +=/*= styles that oracle/sql server used prior to that. also using ANSI standard sql helps (coalesce instead of nvl for example). If you have a large volume of code in triggers and stored procedures that will be a problem regardless of language. It sounds like your difficulties in converting to oracle was mainly the database specific coding and had little to do with PB? We made the effort to eliminate almost all stored procedures to remove those issues from our system and make it a lot more flexible and faster/easier to maintain. sounds like you did same approach for c#.



we are doing c# as well now, mainly for web services. C# does have a lot of great features and i would love to see some c# concepts be added to powerscript.
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Nasir Ahmad Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 13 October 2022 21:02 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 10

As someone who has 10 years of PB development experience I suddenly feel younger now cool . 

  • Community Version : This is something that will be great for people like me who work in Asia, where the average starting salary of developer is $200 a month. One cannot afford to buy those cloud license which take months of income even for an experienced developer. 
  • Target other Geographic regions too: North America has seen this trend of moving toward cloud in past decade which puts desktop applications in an awkward position. Alternatively the rest of the world is not yet that much into cloud usage, for example Asia, Middle East, Africa & South America. This can be an excellent market for starting new Powerbuilder projects but again the PB license is a major issue in these countries along with marketing. 
  • Freelancer : As one of the few freelancer who dare to work in Powerbuilder, it is not economically viable to buy license. The number of projects are almost zero in the major marketplace and it is very hard to have a continuous income this way.
  • Business Intelligence tool: When I use Power BI or Tableau tools they have very limited capabilities as compared to Powerbuilder to handle data and manipulate it. I suggest the marketing team should have a look at how to sell this feature of Powerbuilder to the data handling people. 
  •  Teaching new people PB: I think this is something that is driven by market. If someone tell me to go learn delphi I will not do it unless I feel it will have economic or educational value to my life. Similarly If new Powerbuilder projects will start then people will itself look for ways to learn it and then others will provide the services to share their knowledge. By the way nowadays one can just go to different site like Udemy, Youtube and put the courses over there for everyone to learn. 
Comment
  1. carlos efrain
  2. Friday, 14 October 2022 05:36 AM UTC
Este problema afecta a todos los programadores Power Builder y mas a la Empresa que distribuye.. tardeo temprano nos quedaremos sin clientes sin no se busca una solución.



Att

Carlos.
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Berka Frenfert Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 13 October 2022 06:59 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 11

That is true. PowerBuilder is still there because i am not dead yet.

2 days ago i gave a video of a sample PowerBuilder project to a friend of mine but before that video i gave him a real good impression of PowerBuilder environment. I am still waiting for his response.

He was not worried about how much license cost was. He wanted to see the PB app interface. Really, the thing in my mind that pinches me now is that, if my friend is thinking what will he do if later i am either dead or not there with him to work on his PB app. If that happens, will raise a situation for him for sure.

That is about investors but how about Appeon itself? Well, open source gave a face punch to many big companies like Microsoft, Nokia, motrolla etc.

Appeon pumped more fule into development environment but still technology is not hybrid.

I suggest that PowerBuilder, PowerServer and all related products should be open source.

When you stop earning money you start to do things Just For Good.

 

 

 

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Armeen Mazda @Appeon Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 16:56 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 12

Hi,

I want to share official view of Appeon on this important subject. The talent resource issue is best solved by the existing PB customers hiring new blood and training them in PB by utilizing Appeon-U or our consulting partners or getting staff augmentation from our consulting partners.

I am not saying this is ideal, but this is the reality and definitely do-able.  We have many customers who have done this because other than this issue you point out, PB overall does serve their companies reasonably well and the cost & risk of rewriting the app is usually too huge to make any business sense.

As far as offering a community edition of PB, this isn't going to magically solve the problem.  The only time community edition becomes important is when the motivation is there for many people to proactively invest to learn on their own time. 

Since PB has much smaller market share than .NET for example, somebody who is career-focused is not going to be motivated to learn PB on their own (even if PB was free).  So brings me back to the point there needs to be a job offer along with the employer taking initiative to train up to create set of conditions somebody try to learn.  

I should add that according to Google Analytics of registrations for accounts to use PowerBuilder/InfoMaker, 69.19% of users is 44 years or younger and 44.21% of our users is 34 or younger.  So these are hard numbers to back up my anecdote that many customers are able to get new staff and that it is do-able to staff PB projects for the long-term.

Best regards,
Armeen

Comment
  1. Armeen Mazda @Appeon
  2. Wednesday, 22 November 2023 19:38 PM UTC
Totally agree with Mike. A Web app can be made with any UI technology not necessarily HTML pages. And on iOS and Android users strongly prefer a native app not HTML pages.
  1. Helpful
  1. Arnd Schmidt
  2. Wednesday, 22 November 2023 20:30 PM UTC
I do not think that managers think about native IOS or Chrome / Android apps when they ask you for a web app.

Just ask bing or google for: "What is a web app?".

  1. Helpful
  1. Armeen Mazda @Appeon
  2. Wednesday, 22 November 2023 21:32 PM UTC
I understand your point… just saying managers can ask for wrong things. Us experts need to educate the managers what best way to solve their problem. We won’t win every battle, but lots of PB customers looking at PowerServer.
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Roland Smith Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 13:24 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 13

Most of the time there will be several job listings for Albany, NY. The client is state government and there are dozens of small and large consulting firms looking to fill the same few slots. I worked there for awhile about 6 years ago on their workers comp claims system. They had PB 10.5 and EAServer and probably still do.

 

PowerSoft had a Desktop Edition that could only connect to ODBC databases located on the same computer. The cost was under $500.

 

Comment
  1. Chris Pollach @Appeon
  2. Thursday, 20 October 2022 16:03 PM UTC
Hi Roland;

I worked with the PB distributor here in Canada along with PowerSoft. The Enterprise version was $995.00 USD in those days.

Regards ... Chris
  1. Helpful
  1. PowerObject !
  2. Thursday, 20 October 2022 17:11 PM UTC
I bought PB Enterprise edition from Sybase and at that time, the price was $2,995 with annual renewal at $600 or $595 per year. I think this was the pricing maintained all the way through SAP until PB got handed over to Appeon when it got switched to annual subscription basis.

I still don't understand how anyone could learn PB if there is no free limited community version.
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  1. Chris Pollach @Appeon
  2. Thursday, 20 October 2022 17:35 PM UTC
Yep, that's what happened when $ybase took over product price wise. ::-(
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PowerObject ! Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 12:25 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 14

Today’s young generation wants to learn Cyber Security - not PowerBuilder. They never heard the word “PowerBuilder” nor are they interested in knowing what it is, sadly.

Comment
  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 14:11 PM UTC
Yes but that's another domain...
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David Peace Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 08:40 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 15

A very interesting subject. Interestingly enough I have been talking with the CEO of one of our major competitors about this issue. The fact that the PB developer pool is shrinking and how we are going to have to train young people in PB. In the past we at Powersoft have always trained young people in PB and set them off on a career with that skill set. Ironically our major competitor has sourced their staff from our pool of trained staff. In recent years we have not trained any new staff but have trained our existing staff who are long standing and have been with us for decades. So our competitor has lost their source of young fresh talent.

We have been talking about us training staff for them, we are also looking at starting up our training program and employing some young people to build our skill set. This is the only way we can fill the skills gap.

The problem is and always has been that companies are not prepared to invest in people and train them. This has always seemed a very short sighted approach, which is why we have and continue to train people. I believe in this approach so much that I am prepared to train staff for our competitor as I believe that you get out what you put in to the system.

I do not think having a free to play with version will help generate skills we need to push our employers to train young people to support PB. We need to develop other people skills, the whole PB community needs to focus on this and work coherently together to meet the challenge.

 

Comment
  1. David Peace (Powersoft)
  2. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 09:58 AM UTC
I agree that students and the like may not pick up PB, but they are very unlikely to even if it is free to them. PB is virtually unknown in development circles and that is a fact that Appeon cannot market their way out of. They do not have the marketing budget to achieve that. So being realistic it is the PB users that need to change and develop new talent, they already have licenses or as coperations can purchase one easily enough. Afer all they are te ones that need PB developmet skills in the first place.
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  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 13:17 PM UTC
Do you know how many young developers I did tried to put into powerbuilder? At least 5 last decade (of course my work isn't to teach powerbuilder but to develop, so don't expect a better productivity in that domain). As all of them had a different background when they studied at the university (most of them had previous experience with c# or java), so they ended up to develop in c# or java. Not web applications. .net applications (winform or wpf). All of them were aged between 25 and 30 years old... They all recognized that PB is great, but they weren't interested at the end. Of course this can continue happening even if Appeon invest in more aggressive marketing tactics. But it may also change?



I do wonder about snapdevelop, what is the real acceptance it received until now from developers (not talking about age here), without PB experience? I don't know the answer... It is what Appeon expected when they introduced the IDE and its "framework"? In my opinion it is a nice evolving IDE... But there is so limited code base in the net... New developers want to search the net, find parts of code they can adapt to what they are developing... And this is hard to do with powerbuilder and snapdevelop.



Don't expect an answer but I think "quietly".



During 2010 and 2016 lot of time was lost... Appeon is doing a great job... But is it enough? Because if it isn't some actions should be taken as soon as possible... Αs time passes any reaction may be harder.



Trainings are great, but they have more value when they are official trainings... official tests e.t.c. Again, just my opinion.



Andreas.
  1. Helpful 1
  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 13:18 PM UTC
By the way, I do see more appeon staff participating in the forums... This is great and welcome...
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Andreas Mykonios Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 06:21 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 16

I agree with the way you thing and present your thoughts.

A community version (or express) is a constant request, and it was also in original plans made by Appeon, but it was later removed. Personally I do own and pay a License for my self (I do work in a company but I prefer to have my own license to experiment). One thing that Appeon did well when originally took control of Powerbuilder development was to offer pre orders to a really low cost. But after that I don't remember any other offer for powerbuilder licenses (while for PowerServer I do). In the meantime Standard, which had the most affordable price was discontinued. Also a big emphasis was given to PowerServer (which is a good product and may have a great future). But PowerServer is "tied" with cloud version of Powerbuilder, and I believe there are lot of clients who work with Professional.

Now, with PB 2022, they seem to pay more attention to PowerBuilder and this is good. But the investment is still big. 895 for PB professional (+VAT) may be to much for an individual who wants to learn the technology... And this price must be paid every year. This is a problem. So the only chance to see young people learning powerbuilder is to wait them to get a work where they will have to learn it...

I also wonder how much future may this have...

Andreas.

Comment
  1. PowerObject !
  2. Wednesday, 12 October 2022 15:40 PM UTC
It's an exception that you purchased your own subscription license but how many developers want to do that in these gloomy days of PB? I purchased a PB perpetual license from Sybase which was a one-time payment back in the shiny days of PB. I never upgraded it and it got outdated. Now it is subscription only.
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