1. Roland Smith
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. Wednesday, 18 October 2023 14:05 PM UTC

Could we get more details on the part that says source code will be saved in plain text? It sounds like you're getting rid of the PBL. Nobody is going to like that.

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Simone Olianti Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 19 June 2024 15:09 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 1

hello everyone, this sounds a good improvement imho
anyway thinking about this, i have a pair of questions that maybe someone could answer.

1) Using the new compiller, along with the .EXE, all the .PBDs will still be created? if yes like i guess, there will be one PBD for every folder (ex .PBL)?
2) Imagine we are using InfoMaker and distribute a .PBL containing several reports that we could modify remotely on a client's machine without the need to rebuild and recompile, how to accomplish this task using the new approach? Should we distribuite the source folder containing the source dw reports instead of the old PBL?

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  1. Chris Pollach @Appeon
  2. Wednesday, 19 June 2024 15:31 PM UTC
Hi Simone;

That is a great question! No, you will not be able to accomplish this cross PBL use between IM 2025 & PB 2025

You will need to stay with a "WorkSpace" approach in PB 2025 in order to share PBL's between IM 2015 as IM will continue as a "workspace".

This will be one of the key considerations you will need to make in PB 2025 *before* switching from a WS to a Solution approach.

Regards .. Chris
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Vinicius Geraldino Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 19 June 2024 13:49 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 2

"Nobody is going to like that." 

Speak for yourself, the whole world and all new technologies use this characteristic.

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Chris Pollach @Appeon Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Tuesday, 18 June 2024 16:15 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 3

Hi Roland;

  FYI: Here is what I see in my PB 2025 alpha version PB App wise. Note that the Workspace object is gone being replaced by the new "Solution" object. PBL's are now folders and PB objects are basically like you would export their source in the current PB 2022 Rx releases ...

HTH

Regards .. Chris

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  1. Roland Smith
  2. Tuesday, 18 June 2024 17:23 PM UTC
Will GIT/SVN within the IDE track all files, for example the .ico and .pbr files I see in your solution folder?
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  1. Chris Pollach @Appeon
  2. Tuesday, 18 June 2024 18:42 PM UTC
Hi Roland;

I fired up my "early Alpha" PB 2025 release just now, added a picture object and then assigned that a GIF image.

After a Full Build & Deploy of the App EXE, I could not see anywhere where the 2025 IDE was tracking the external object.

So I am "assuming" that the answer to your question is NO in PB 2025 GA *but* I should point out that this is a very "early" alpha build of PB 2025 that I am currently using. So we would need to get Engineering's "take" on what GA release will have to be 100% sure.

Regards .. Chris
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  1. Benjamin Gaesslein
  2. Wednesday, 19 June 2024 09:58 AM UTC
If the original PBLs were residing within subfolders, will the folder structure be preserved?



I kinda wish they would've kept the ws_objects folder for source files. This will mean moving every single source file in git. Not the end of the world but not ideal either.
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Miguel Leeuwe Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Friday, 20 October 2023 14:18 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 4

So ...

If I understood Bruce's image (from a presentation by Armeen I still don't know anything about), we are only going to get P-Code based executables?

(I don't mind, I prefer P-Code, but it might be and important thing to know for other people).

 

Comment
  1. Roland Smith
  2. Friday, 20 October 2023 14:30 PM UTC
We need p-code to run the app from the IDE instantly. Maybe machine code deployment is still supported.
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  1. Chris Pollach @Appeon
  2. Friday, 20 October 2023 14:46 PM UTC
Hi Roland;

For M-Code, you would need to stay with the current PBL approach in order to maintain that aspect.

Regards ... Chris
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  1. mike S
  2. Tuesday, 18 June 2024 17:44 PM UTC
-OR- a 3rd party product could create the pbls, import the source, then generate machine code.
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Armeen Mazda @Appeon Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Friday, 20 October 2023 10:24 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 5

We will still maintain the legacy compiler for the long-term so the PBL is not going away if you don't want it to.  The new plain text format is just a choice and not forced on you.  Please look at Bruce's post for more details.

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  1. Armeen Mazda @Appeon
  2. Tuesday, 18 June 2024 16:10 PM UTC
Small % of people will be doing frequent/heavy edits outside of PB IDE. Keep doing these checks slows down performance of the product. But we can consider to make it configurable with default obviously off.
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  1. Julie Jiang @Appeon
  2. Wednesday, 19 June 2024 02:48 AM UTC
@Andreas,

In this GA release we will provide a system setting for the new format workspace (solutions): When a solution is opened, whether to directly perform an incremental build, not perform an incremental build, or provide a prompt to let the user to decide.

In addition, there will be a real-time monitoring on .pbsln and .pbproj files. If the file is modified outside the IDE, the IDE will directly prompt the user to reload the solution.



Best regards, Julie

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  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Wednesday, 19 June 2024 06:23 AM UTC
Ok. That sounds nice.

Andreas.
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Bruce Armstrong Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Friday, 20 October 2023 10:20 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 6

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Benjamin Gaesslein Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 19 October 2023 08:36 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 7

"Nobody is going to like that."

I, for one, say "good riddance". :) No more large binary files that contain both source code and compiled code? Yes, please.

Comment
  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Friday, 20 October 2023 14:06 PM UTC
Ok. This is a good point. Of course those files will be organized into folders. That's what I understood. It's somehow what PB.NET was doing in the past. What may be an issue is if someone edit the source file using some other program (example notepad). There will be some mechanism for pb to understand that the compiled code doesn't correspond to the source code? PB.NET had not that issue, as there was no compiled code stored somewhere. But there was a problem when someone edited a file outside from powerbuilder. If I remember well it was related with incremental compilation.

Andreas.
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  1. Benjamin Gaesslein
  2. Monday, 23 October 2023 10:08 AM UTC
Roland, but you already have all these files, they're just contained within other files. Tightly coupling things is never a great thing in programming and coupling compiled code to source code is an exceptionally egregious example of this.
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  1. Markus Eckert
  2. Monday, 23 October 2023 11:35 AM UTC
Right now, I have the 15000 files packed into 80 pbl, as well as another copy of these 15000 files in the ws_objects subfolder for versionings. The worst of both worlds, so to say.

I for one won't shed many tears for PBL either.
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Bruce Armstrong Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 19 October 2023 08:34 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 8

From Armeen's presentation.

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  1. Miguel Leeuwe
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 14:56 PM UTC
Hi,

Do you have a link to the presentation? The image is a bit too blurry.

TIA
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Bruce Armstrong Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 19 October 2023 08:14 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 9

From what Im seeing Armeen presenting here at the European seminars:

1.  Its a new option, you can continue to use the PBL if you want to.

2.  When its enabled, the source code is saved separately from the compiled pcode.  The files are stored in folders that mimic the PBL structure (like the source code is stored under ws_objects today for the SVN and Git interfaces)

Comment
  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 08:33 AM UTC
That's what pb.net was doing. I wonder if this option is a selection that once made you can't easily return to the old way (using pbl's).
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  1. Bruce Armstrong
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 08:35 AM UTC
Yes, its a one way process. you cant go back once you've migrated a project to it.
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  1. Miguel Leeuwe
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 14:57 PM UTC
Great news Bruce!
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Miguel Leeuwe Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Thursday, 19 October 2023 07:02 AM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 10

Question to Roland,

Would you upgrade Wizsource when this change happens?

regards.

Comment
  1. Roland Smith
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 12:46 PM UTC
SCC functions take an array of file names as their arguments. The IDE currently has to export objects to files and then pass those file names to the function. For SccGet (called by Get Latest & Check Out), the IDE has to import the updated file.

I likely won't have to make any major changes. The location the files are saved to by the IDE will probably be different so I might need to create a one time conversion utility to update the path structure in the database. I'll certainly test it thoroughly when the beta is available and make any needed changes.
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  1. Miguel Leeuwe
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 14:57 PM UTC
Thanks, we love WizSource, so that's great news.
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  1. Roland Smith
  2. Monday, 17 June 2024 13:38 PM UTC
On another thread it has been revealed that the new text file mode will not support the SCC API that is used by WizSource. The standard PBL mode will continue to support SCC API as an obsolete feature (no bug support). WizSource does have a file app 'WizSource IDE' that could be used. I'll be looking into ways to improve WizSource so it can work both ways.
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mike S Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 18 October 2023 15:15 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 11

I don't see the need for the pbl.  pretty much everything except the IDE itself spends time exporting out to plain text before doing anything anyway. 

I *assume* that the pbl originally was created due to limitations with the windows file system in 1989.   Seems to just cause problems today.

SCC systems such as roland's wizsource may have the bigger problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comment
  1. Roland Smith
  2. Wednesday, 18 October 2023 16:45 PM UTC
Since SCC systems like WizSource work on files exported by the IDE, they would work better theoretically since the IDE wouldn't have to export/import the source files.
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  1. Andreas Mykonios
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 06:06 AM UTC
I agree.

Andreas.
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Miguel Leeuwe Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 18 October 2023 14:53 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 12

More and more changes and more and more bugs. How do you ever expect us to upgrade our customers? Some new things are really nice, but then next to be undone / destroyed, like the .Net "Framework" support for the DLL importer tool as an example. Appeon has said it wants to totally move away from .Net Framework and migrate to .Net 6/7/8. What about OLE and COM, that won't work anymore then is it? And of course the ever changing RTE control which is never bug free. Native PDF has also never had a bug free version. I'm scared by the idea of this upcoming change. Luckily we don't use Git because that's another PIA. (Thank you Roland for WizSource!!!!).

We need more solid testing on the part of Appeon before expecting us to do the work of testing for them whilst having angry customers. We're not upgrading anything until we see something solid out here.

just my 2cts.

Comment
  1. David Peace (Powersoft)
  2. Monday, 17 June 2024 14:35 PM UTC
@Miguel, if you have not used PB2022 then I think you are missing a real productivity gain. I understand your comments about stability and to be fair I think PB is as stable now as it was in version 6.5. Ironically, it's the source control interface that causes most of our IDE crashes, so perhaps that will be better without the PBLs who knows.



We have now moved our entire source code base to PB2022R3, that is a sign of how much better we think it is. The code was sitting in a raft of older versions with the attitude of "it ain't broke so don't fix it" keeping it sitting on older versions. Pushing it all to PB2022R3 was an easy decision, the benefits outweighed the down sides. We have had to refactor some bits of code to embrace the new features that Appeon have given us, some of which have been a little problematic to be honest. Appeon have been extremely responsive to our issues and sent us fixes really quickly so they did not negatively impact on our projects. I’m very happy. But, as always will be sceptical about new releases of any software ? not just PB.



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  1. Miguel Leeuwe
  2. Monday, 17 June 2024 22:08 PM UTC
@David,

Hi,

We WILL upgrade one of these days, but I keep checking on the tickets raised for PB2022 and I think there's still too much of them. One of the (non bug) changes is the change in window sizes. Only that one, is going to cost a lot of work, since lots of windows are crammed in an exact space, but that's just an example. We'll also have to migrate our PFC classes, etc. Not sure if we'll get yet another version of the RTE control, on which we depend heavily and which has been giving us lots of head aches over the last few years. For now, 2019 R3 is working fine for us and I think we'll wait at least until the next release or MR.

Yes, you're absolutely right about Appeon being extremely responsive. No one is going to deny that.

regards.
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  1. Chris Pollach @Appeon
  2. Monday, 17 June 2024 22:57 PM UTC
Hi Miguel;

Engineering hopes to have an MR ready shortly around the end of July. This should bump PB & PS up to .net 8.

Regards... Chris
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Andreas Mykonios Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. Wednesday, 18 October 2023 14:35 PM UTC
  2. PowerBuilder
  3. # 13

Hi.

Can't say if I like the idea or not. But if it's true, then some things should be handled differently... The plan is to change pbl to folder like pb.net was doing? Or to get rid? If it's the second, what will happen with pbd's? Will be able to customized if we want to still use pbl's or not?

Andreas.

Comment
  1. Chris Pollach @Appeon
  2. Thursday, 19 October 2023 17:16 PM UTC
Hi Roland;

This is a VERY popular thing that many PB shops use in production with IM!

Also, I have developed "Ad-Hoc" reports in PB that are dynamically added to production Apps in a similar manner.

Then there is the case of storing DWO's in a DBMS and dynamically adding them to a PBL at runtime.

I use dynamic PBLs when unit testing my PB Apps. This is a great PBL feature advantage IMHO.

I also use a WIP PBL in development environment process to "test" potential object changes before I actually check out the real object and make a permanent cod change.

So in these above cases (and I am sure that there are many other "Use Case"), you would need to stay with the current PBL technology

You will *not* be forced into the new "Solution" Workspace mode. ;-)

PB Developers will need to assess the Risk / Benefit though before converting as it is a "one way street".

Food for thought. HTH

Regards ... Chris

PS: The same considerations apply for PBD's as well BTW.
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  1. mike S
  2. Friday, 20 October 2023 03:22 AM UTC
roland, why do you think that pbd's would change (ie patch.pbd files)? Isn't it just the pbls?



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  1. Julie Jiang @Appeon
  2. Tuesday, 24 October 2023 02:30 AM UTC
Mike, you are right. PBD files will be the same with the new solution.



Best regards, Julie
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