IMO,  Solutions and limitations we have with PB 2019

1.  It's some how easier and time saving to convert existing projects to Cloud.  Reasult is an Windows App, which will work with any Windows [ full fledged ].  Think it won't work in Windows Mobile.

2.  For newer Cloud projects, create dw/ds, convert to C#, write other codes in Powerscript, run, check, test, deploy.   This way one can retain existing team.   

3.  For multi-os projects, with HTML/CSS as front-end, no easy solution available, even with 2019 revision, without  a good rewrite.   Appeon should think about this limitation and address this issue as well.

Happiness Always
BKR Sivaprakash

I don't think that what exactly the 'Cloud Edition' is has been clearly explained.

In response to Kamal's 3 questions:

1. As of now (early 2019) Appeon does not have a solution for Linux / OSX end users. 

The new C# server-side features support ASP.NET pages.  The ASP.NET pages are not automatically generated for you, but PB 2019 does offer a business logic migration solution to "port" your non-visual code and DataWindows/DataStore data objects to C#.

2. Even in the distant future (2021?) Appeon will not provide a solution to deploy / migrate existing Appeon PB applications to the web (os independent cross-browser) without substantial rewrite?

Substantial means different things to different people.  There is no magic button you push and most or all the work is done for you.  But our business logic migration solution eliminates substantial amount of work compared to rewriting the entire app from scratch.

3. Appeon 2019 does NOT provide a solution to deploy data window applications to the web. It only converts data stores (which are not the same as data windows) to C#. For the front-end UI we will have to write code using some other development tools / environment ?

I the future revision of PB 2019 we plan to add ASP.NET web project type to PowerBuilder Cloud Edition.  If you cannot wait for the revision then you can start building out your ASP.NET pages using something free like Visual Studio code and use PB to migrate your business logic to C#.

I think Mathhieu has summed up the issues quite well. We have been having some very strong debates internally on what Appeon's roadmap really means. All the discussions here still leave an elephant in the room which apparently Appeon does not want to address. So let me rephrase some of the questions / issues in the hope of getting simple yes or no answers:
1. As of now (early 2019) Appeon does not have a solution for Linux / OSX end users. 
2. Even in the distant future (2021?) Appeon will not provide a solution to deploy / migrate existing Appeon PB applications to the web (os independant cross-browser)  without substantial rewrite?

3. Appeon 2019 does NOT provide a solution to deploy data window applications to the web. It only converts data stores (which are not the same as data windows) to C#. For the front-end UI we will have to write code using some other development tools / environment ?

I think Matthieu's closing remarks are very significant and Appeon should think seriously about them -- "will need a huge investment in UI development (with new developers to find as it's not the same job than developing a datawindow). And i think that companies who had already invested with PowerBuilder won't be very happy to make huge investment. And if it's just to use another C# Framework, they can go with any other Framework."

Regards

kamal

Just like Mr Kamal Kapur, remote desktop or similar is not the solution we are looking for.
We at GFI Software invested a lot on PowerBuilder to create a framework and a product relying heavily on the EAServer/PowerBuilder/Web DataWindow technology.
This is a pure browser based application as required by our customers (laboratories, state agencies and CROs).
The graphical possibilities of the DataWindow are the cornerstone of our software and are becoming useless on the server side for your IIS/C# implementation.
Right now we do not see how we can "port" our software to your proposed architecture without heavy investments.
It will be more a rewriting process and we also would hate to dump the classic Powerbuilder after having invested so much in it.

Regards,

Rodney Kempler

Hi all,
nice topic.
Kamal, there is no magic if you want to run cross-browser UI and datawindow-based B.L.
Only reasonable way is PB 2019 and its migration tool to C# server models, and then use any front-end Web framework for building crispy single-page applications.
Any attempt to embed PowerScript into ISAPI filters I am afraid will hit scalability issues.
PowerServer is amazing for existing projects that need a fast deployment and high ROI. But of course it has the limitations you outlined.
Application deployment is quickly moving towards container based approach and Appeon has it in its roadmap.
My suggestion is to trust faithful PB coming tools for the B.L., while picking up any opensource web framework out there for developing your modern fresh UI.
I've personally opted for JavaScript-based solutions like React or Vue.
I will join the PB Open webcast as an opportunity to compare what Gianluca is doing with my current consulting services based on combination of PB C# datastore and JavaScript Web frameworks.
Only missing pieces in my puzzle are Microservice target and Docker integration: luckily, during Elevate 2018, Armeen already committed to fill this gap! :P
Happy PB2019 everybody!
Best,
.m

Here are the links to the Migrate to PB Open webinars. There are two webinars, the first more business-oriented:

http://www.powerbuildertv.com/index.php/en/upcoming-webinars/735-migrate-to-pb-open-modernize-architecture-and-ui

And the second, a technical session

http://www.powerbuildertv.com/index.php/en/upcoming-webinars/736-migrate-to-pb-open-modernize-technical-session

In addition to requiring a plug-in that only works on Windows, PowerServer is only a tool for deploying PowerBuilder desktop apps to the web in a way that looks almost exactly like the desktop app. It isn't for writing web apps with PowerBuilder.

The new C# feature will allow for deploying non-visual objects to the web server. You still have to develop the web front end yourself in whatever language you choose.

I just uploaded a new version of PBDotWeb so if you've already downloaded, you should get it again.

The advantage it has is that you can run directly from the library. If you make a change to the code, just switch to your browser and click refresh. No need to compile.

Hi Armeen,
It is quite heartening to note that the CEO of Appeon is himself taking active part in these discussions. Thanks.
My comment about "no way out" was based purely on the response we received in our support ticket on this very issue. In fact I was quite disappointed about it myself because I had actually gone through Appeon's PowerBuilder Roadmap quite thoroughly before switching to Powerbuilder.
To give you some background, I have spent almost 40 years in business systems design and development -- yes I am 63+ now :) I have seen Sybase lose the race to Oracle when they switched from APT to Powerbuilder without offering any migration tools. And now I am seeing Oracle losing to Visual Studio platform with c# and other .net languages quite simply because Oracle has not been able to offer a smooth migration from their Developer Suite to pure web applications.
I am now leading a project to convert a full blown ERP system involving approx. 1500 tables and 700+ screen forms from Oracle Forms and Reports to browser based web technologies. We started with Visual Studio and dotNet but found it to be a very tedious and slow process. It was then that someone suggested Powerbuilder and after going through the roadmap and blogs we decided to switch to Powerbuilder.
In my opinion Appeon is on the right track and could become the platform of choice for business applications. However, there is caveat. Appeon's PB suite can not be just another Visual Studio (that is a lost game even before it begins). It has to offer something totally different. That something would be the ability to develop complete applications using datawindows in the Powerbuilder IDE and then deploy them seamlessly on to any browser without requiring any plugin downloads (like the current multi-browser plugin which works on Windows only).
Honestly, I don't know if the 2019 beta does this or the roadmap will take us there and this is what I would like to know.

with regards

kamal

Hi Kamal,

I'm very surprised by your comment that with PowerBuilder "there is no way out".  Ever since we took over PowerBuilder we have been strongly promoting that the technology direction for PowerBuilder is to be open, following standards, and cloud compatible, and we have made big engineering investments to accomplish this. 

I guess you have not spent time looking at the PowerBuilder roadmap, reading about the features of PowerBuilder 2019, or trying out the beta version?  Hmmm... that's a little discouraging for us that loyal PowerBuilder users like yourself are so out of touch.

Just to clarify, PowerBuilder 2019 provides a C# migration solution to move PowerBuilder business logic to C# Web APIs or assemblies, and these C# projects are totally open both from a development perspective and runtime perspective.  In other words, you can use any IDE to maintain these C# projects and you can run on cross-OS server supported by the .NET Core (e.g. Linux).

These are no longer the Sybase days!  

Regards,

Armeen Mazda
CEO, Appeon

This is the link to our "Migrate to PB Open" page. I tried to synthesize in a few words the program, but take a look at the page, you will find more info about it.

https://www.powerbuilder.eu/consulting/migrate-to-pb-open

The webinar will be run on April 24, will post more info soon!

Hi Kamal,

  Yes, I saw Gian Luca's post about their new PB Open product. I have not seen it or heard about this product prior to Gian's post. So it will be interesting to see what he has "cooked up".  Gian has built some pretty amazing PB add-on software over the years - so it could be well worth a close look. It will be interesting to see.

Regards ... Chris

Would love to attend it.

with regards

Thanks Roland. Chris Pollach has already pointed me towards this and I will definitely try this out. Give me some time and I will give you feedback on my experience.

with regards

Thanks Chris. This sounds interesting and I will definitely try it out.

Meanwhile, there is this reply from Gianluca about "Migrate to PB Open" which claims to give "a modern architecture (server-side, multi-platform) with a modern UI (any browser, any platform, native mobile apps, multi-platform client: you choose what you need), ". I am wondering how much of this is true because PB support has categorically told us "there is no way out". Would like to hear what you have to say about this.

Hi Kamal;

   Unfortunately, Appeon's current PowerServer Web option only works on MS-Windows client based browsers as you have correctly stated.

   However, you might want to consider Roland's PBDotWeb alternative and go pure HTML ( 

http://www.topwizprogramming.com/tools.html ). That should have your App work on any browser platform. Note that this alternative is not Appeon supported.

Regards ... Chris

Hi Kamal,

We are launching a program called "Migrate to PB Open", that leverages the Appeon Roadmap (migration of the PB Business Logic, Datawindows and embedded SQL to a Web API based on .Net Core), and rewrites the UI in any technology you need.

The result is a modern architecture (server-side, multi-platform) with a modern UI (any browser, any platform, native mobile apps, multi-platform client: you choose what you need), and with the business logic that resembles the PB business logic that we all love.

The program helps you to migrate your PowerBuilder Business Logic to a Web API, and uses Agile methodologies to implement the UI of your dreams, directly connected to your new Web API.

We are running a webinar in few weeks to show the program. If you need more info, feel free to contact me at: gianluca.debonis@enable-dev.com

Kind regards,

GL

I created a free tool that allows you to run PowerBuilder code in IIS directly from PBL files. The HTML of the page is generated in PowerScript and can be combined with static HTML files before being streamed back to the browser. It also supports streaming images, PDF, and any other binary file that your browser supports. The demo shows how you can retrieve a datastore, save it to PDF using NativePDF, and stream it back to the browser.

I does not automatically convert windows to HTML. It is similar in concept to Classic ASP where HTML is generated through a combination of static HTML and vbscript code.

The main technical drawback I am aware of is that web hosting sites like GoDaddy probably won't let you install ISAPI Extensions on a shared web server. You would need your own dedicated web server on site or in the cloud. On the plus side, the client browser can be on any operating system because it is 100% server based.

I haven't performed a high volume test on it but in single user tests it is very fast. I would love to get some feedback on it.

Go here and download PBDotWeb:

http://www.topwizprogramming.com/tools.html

Hi Kamal,

Based on what you have said and your replies, the best option I see is that you migrate your PowerScript business logic and DataWindows to C# assemblies using the new features of PowerBuilder 2019 Cloud Edition.  Take a look at the "C# Migration Solution" tab on this page: https://www.appeon.com/developers/pb-2019-beta.html

The new C# features are built on the .NET Core so you are not limited only to Windows servers.  You could run Linux servers, use Kestrel web server, go serverless, etc.

For the HTML UI you would need to hand-code that in ASP.NET, but at least the heavy lifting part of your app could be salvaged.  My guess is this would save you at least 50% of the effort compared to a full rewrite.  So if you do want to go HTML I still think it makes sense to use PowerBuilder to do that.

Regards,
Armeen

Remote desktop or similar is not the solution I am looking for; as a matter of fact we are currently using AppAnywhere as a temp solution. I want a pure browser based application that can be accessed on any pc / desktop running Windows, Linux or OSX regardless of the backend server platform. I know we could do it using Visual Studio. We ran a pilot on this before switching to PB because of the datawindow concept. And I would hate to switch back to Visual Studio after having invested so much in Powerbuilder.